Posts by Cold Steel

19

Maybe this is a way to get a Witness to use CRITICAL THINKING ?

by raymond frantz in

i have been trying recently different ways to get fellow witnesses to use their thinking faculties ,one that seems to work is the following :.

"would you believe in the trinity if the governing body told you to ?

because it is not in the bible .

Cold Steel

Part of the newest doctrine accepted by the church is that the Governing Body is the God-ordained mouthpiece for the Almighty. If they determined that "new light" dictated a belief in the Trinity, I think they wouldn't call it the "Trinity," but would explain it in a way they could plausibly claim their interpretation was of God.

But what of other doctrinal shifts? What if the GB decided after much study and prayer that the church had erred on the doctrine of man not having a spirit? Would that be a test for most? A strong argument can be made that man sleeping until the resurrection is an untrue doctrine (mostly because it is untrue). The idea that some men are imbued with spirits while others are not is patently absurd on its face. And man having a spirit is biblical. That man had a spirit was believed by the ancient Christians because we have some of their non-canonical writings. There are even indications they believed in life before birth, where we dwelt as spirits before coming here.

So what would happen if they did away with the soul sleeping doctrine?

19

Maybe this is a way to get a Witness to use CRITICAL THINKING ?

by raymond frantz in

i have been trying recently different ways to get fellow witnesses to use their thinking faculties ,one that seems to work is the following :.

"would you believe in the trinity if the governing body told you to ?

because it is not in the bible .

Cold Steel

I think I would be on very safe ground to say that the Roman Catholic Church has never made anywhere near the changes made by Jehovah`s Witnesses in their 2000 year existance.

Well, that may be pushing it a bit, Smiddy. The Catholics have changed so much of Christianity that they bear little resemblance to the ancient church. For example, we have...umm...the veneration and prayers to saints, the veneration, assumption and prayers to Mary, the Trinity, Transubstantiation, the robes, pointed hats and other outer vestments, the Sacraments, genuflecting, the repetition of prayer, changes to the priesthood...and the list goes on and on. Those are a lot of changes!

Let's not forget that the term "Governing Body" does not appear anywhere in the Bible.

Nope, no prophesy that there will be a Governing Body in the future, nor are there any prophecies regarding the church going in the direction that the JWs have gone. They're Protestants pure and simple. If they believe the ancient church survived, where's it been for the past 2,000 years? Anciently, God called prophets and when He lived on Earth, He chose 12 apostles, Bishops, Seventy, Elders, Priests, Deacons, Evangelists and so forth. Of that group, the JWs only have elders and no line of apostolic authority and no record of divine commissioning, where God acknowledges His church.

46

No angelic protection for 20+ Jehovah's Witnesses on way to Convention. All dead.....

by Balaamsass in

from nigerian newspaper via google alert a few minutes ago;.

entire family, 20 others die in fatal accidenttragedy struck weekend in akwa ibom state as a man, his wife and all their children, as well as more than 20 others, all members of the jehovahs witness church, perished in a fatal road accident which occurred, friday, along the utu etim ekpo road in etim ekpo local government area of the state.. forty other members of the church sustained varying degrees of injuries following in the crash which occurred on their way to the jehovahs witness annual convention ground in ikot ekpene local government area of the state.. thisdays gathered that more than 70 members of the church had hired a lorry to convey them from ukanafun local government area to ikot ekpene for the annual district convention which began on friday and billed to end today (sunday) but the journey ended half way with many members of the church dying on the road in the accident.. eyewitnesses alleged that the driver of the lorry conveying the church members to the venue of the convention lost control of the vehicle when he got to utu etim ekpo, the junction opposite the local government secretariat, and hit the stone used to construct the roundabout, thus resulting in the lorry somersaulting, leaving many of its passengers and others wounded.. the corpses and those injured in the accident were said to have been taken to neighbouring hospitals and mortuaries.. one of the eyewitnesses, mr. friday john, said the people who died may have been more than what was seen because a whole family including parents and their children were all trapped in the accident.. we were all here discussing when suddenly the lorry appeared and was looking like the driver had lost control of it.

then the lorry drove straight and hit the stone and somersaulted into the gutter.. many people died, more than 18. in fact, we couldnt count the number because there were many corpses, including husband, wife and children and they were all taken to the mortuary in various hospitals near etim ekpo here, john explained.. in another narration, a secondary school teacher in eka uruk eshiet etim ekpo, mr. ndipmo nkanta, said the lorry boarded by the deceased and the injured passengers was not meant for passengers but goods only.. he blamed the accident on poverty , arguing that if there was a better alternative, such casualties wouldnt have been recorded, especially as they were going to worship god.. the public relations officer of the federal road safety corps, frsc, in the state, mr. godsgift uwen, blamed the incident on over-speeding and overloading by the driver of the lorry.. he said the lorry was not supposed to carry any passenger as it was a meant for goods only but the driver stubbornly used it as a passengers vehicle, which led to the sad incident.. he advised against rush and drunken driving, especially in the yuletide, noting that these are some of the major causes of accidents on the roads.. culled from thisday".

Cold Steel

You can't really put this on God. In any religion there are losses of life because God cannot and will not violate peoples' free agency. Yes, he can and probably does protect some people if he has a work or some sort of plan for them; but sometimes he just lets these things happen. In other religions, people say, "Well, God needed them on the other side," but hey, how many of those 20 had spirits? Most, if not all of them, are already in Paradise from their point of view. At least that's what we're told. And if they're right, heck, I'm sure there will be a meeting nearby that they can go to.

If the leaders of the JWs say that God protects people en route to meetings, they put themselves in danger of something like this happening.

11

Reaction When Telling JWs "New Light" Regarding GB & FDS

by turtleturtle in

i told some jw friends about the confirmed changes to the understanding of who the fds is.

two brothers that are in appointed positions stated "i thought that was the understanding already".. .

figures.

Cold Steel

Hey, Aussie. How did you change your avatar?

As for the doctrine of the FDS, I thought it was something the GB has been creeping towards for some time. They probably couldn't have gotten away with it had they announced it a couple of years ago.

If I were a Dub, I'd sure want to be part of the spirit ruling class. Am I to understand that there are going to be 144,000 rulers over the Earth when it's gardenfied?

13

I hope nothing happens to the Governing Body, the WT and all JWs

by 00DAD in

hear me out.

you see when good things happen to them it's "proof" of jehovah's blessing.

when bad things happen to them it's persecution from satan and in a weird way confirmation of their beliefs.

Cold Steel

Nothing in nature stays the same. Life is always filled with opposition. The JW Governing Body only has the power that the members give them. If they can control what members read, watch, think and believe. The members want other people to read their materials and thoughtfully, even prayerfully, consider them. But woe betide the member who reads the literature of a rival sect! It's reading apostate stuff! And if they can place fear in the hearts of their members, then they have them. If they can keep exposure to other religious and secular views to a minimum, they can keep members safely ensconced in their little cacoons. It's also helpful to control their access to their own families. If they aren't Jehovah's Witnesses, then cast them off! If they are Jehovah's Witnesses, watch out! With a simple declaration they will cast YOU off.

So the GB will never be isolated and de-fanged. Even if you sever ties with them, they control your friends and family; because while you served them, they counseled you not to socialize outside of controlled circles. In other words, they want to be able to control the tap. They don't want members who associate with people whose loyalties they don't tightly control. If they can squeeze your family or friends; or if you've cut off your non-member friends, parents and siblings, they're able to use the power that YOU gave them.

It's all very fascinating. It's one reason that Jesus condemned false teachers and blind guides. For when blind leaders who receive no revelation try to lead others, they all fall into the pit. The GB is a self-appointed group of blind guides. Their teachings aren't consistent and they have considerable influence over their followers.

17

What About Adam & Eve?

by Cold Steel in

what are the teachings of the jehovah's witnesses in regard to adam and eve?

i know that they believe the fall was a horrible, horrible mistake and that man was never intended to fall (despite god's foreknowledge).

does the atonement of christ cover their sins or are they to be destroyed after their resurrection?

Cold Steel

The fact that Eve was deceived and so her sin wasn't deliberate was simply ignored. Not sure, why. Maybe God simply didn't like her.

Perhaps. Or perhaps God was just "ribbing" them...heh heh. Many later accounts by the ancient Christians held that Adam intentionally fell so as not to leave his wife. He could not have multiplied and replinished the earth without her. There's no account that tells us how long it was before they fell. It could have been many years. If he loved Eve, he would have made the concious decision to cast his lot with hers.

Russell taught that Adam's fall was not only foreknown it was part of god's Divine Plan of The Ages before creation and that the ransom was to redeem Adam - one perfect life for one perfect life.

So how does this relate to "new light"? If the first is last, perhaps Charles T. will be right and the FDS will be wrong. Or perhaps the slave will just admit they don't know -- that as the churches of Christ say, "Where the Bible speaks, we speak; where the Bible's silent, we are silent!"

Once you showed your dad, what did he say? Is Adam and Eve's fate something most JWs have an opinion about?

My view on the matter is that how could a just and merciful God condemn the couple? They were innocents, like little children. I don't know many parents who would kill their children if they disobeyed an explicit command. (Deny them blood transfusions, perhaps, but not kill them.) If God knows the end from the beginning, it stands to reason that He knew that Adam and Eve would sin. The ancient Christians not only believed that Adam and Eve would be resurrected, they wrote accounts of their baptisms. To think that Adam and Eve lived for nearly a thousand years, one would think they would have repented and gotten to know Jehovah, the great Judge and Mediator between the Father and man. That would have made him a prophet and the greatest of the patriarchs. While in the Garden, they walked and talked with the Father (which has interesting implications in itself). But once they sinned, they needed a Mediator...and it just so happened that God had provided one. Why would He have appointed One if He didn't know?

The Orthodox Christians and the LDS believe that only through the Fall and the redemption could man become what God is. They never could have known the difference between good and evil. In other words, the Fall was always part of the Plan, and Charles T. apparently knew that.

17

What About Adam & Eve?

by Cold Steel in

what are the teachings of the jehovah's witnesses in regard to adam and eve?

i know that they believe the fall was a horrible, horrible mistake and that man was never intended to fall (despite god's foreknowledge).

does the atonement of christ cover their sins or are they to be destroyed after their resurrection?

Cold Steel

What are the teachings of the Jehovah's Witnesses in regard to Adam and Eve? I know that they believe the Fall was a horrible, horrible mistake and that man was never intended to fall (despite God's foreknowledge). Does the atonement of Christ cover their sins or are they to be destroyed after their resurrection? Or will they be resurrected?

8

Jehovahs Witnesses not a religion ?

by BlindersOff1 in

does anyone have a list of quotes from old publications that promote the idea that jehovahs witnesses are not a religion..

Cold Steel

Well, it was initially founded by Charles Taze Russell of Allegheny, Pittsburgh, in 1872. A member of the Congregational Church, he left it to start an organization called Zion's Watchtower Society, then International Bible Students. Subsequently they presumed to call themselves Jehovah's Witnesses. Many years ago their battle cry was that "there are millions now living who will never die." It's just one of the manmade religions by dissatisfied members of other Christian churches regardless of what they claim. It has everything a true religion of Christ would need except a commission and authority to act in God's name.

Yes, they're a religion.

33

Tell me if this is a stupid idea.

by DATA-DOG in

you know how you sometimes you are going about your day and then an idea hits you?

you say to yourself, " what a great idea!!".

then you think to yourself that maybe it isn't so great?

Cold Steel

Yes I want out, and I want my family out.

Okay, why? Once you're out, what do you want your family to do? Do you have any children? And how do you feel about religion now? Would you want your family to remain Christians or just give up the whole thing?

I'm going to subtly bring up the point that I don't understand why Revelation 20 says that these scrolls will be opened after Satan is destroyed—not during the 1000 years, and then ask him, “Can you explain that to me?”

Do you mean the Book of Life? I don't know what else you could be referring to. You said they were "wonderful new scrolls," and I didn't know whether this was an esoteric reference or whether I missed something.

33

Tell me if this is a stupid idea.

by DATA-DOG in

you know how you sometimes you are going about your day and then an idea hits you?

you say to yourself, " what a great idea!!".

then you think to yourself that maybe it isn't so great?

Cold Steel

The question is, what would you hope to accomplish? And do you want to stay in the church? Let's face it, the FDS is now an integral part of JW theology. From now on, the heirarchy will start with the FDS and end with the FDS. You undoubtedly feel a need to discuss this with the elders, and if the FDS is not God's representatives on Earth, then who is?

Bringing this up with the elders will almost assuredly result in the interpretation that you are rebellious and call into question your loyalty to both the church and its leaders. I'd do it in a heartbeat, but then, I don't believe in the FDS's self appointed position as God's mouthpiece. So you just have to determine what the worst consequences could be and if you'd be willing to "repent" if they forced you into a corner.